An irrelevant plural form

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antoine
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An irrelevant plural form

Post by antoine » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:11 pm

In poptray's GUI, even though the number of messages is equal to nihil, the following string is displayed : "0 messages".
"0 message" would be of course better.

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Antoine

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quosego
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Post by quosego » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:41 pm

Hi Antoine. At first i did not understand your posting. Because in dutch, english and german i was sure the form for *zero* is plural.
From the french language i know just a little bit but after some googling for *plural form french number zero* i found following
Note, that the french use the singular form for zero values (unlike English and German), and that Polish uses three forms, in a complicated mix.

http://dybdahl.dk/dxgettext/docs/howto-ngettext.php

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Post by antoine » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:35 pm

Hi quosego. You have exactly pointed out what the *real* problem was. I confirm that Bruno Giroux and I are providing then french localization for PopTray, respectively for french (Canada) and french (France). As for french (France), you are right "0 messages" is mostly incorrect ; the correct form is "0 message". I let Bruno (homaquebec) answer for french (Canada).
Of course this bug is not leading to a misfunctioning of poptray ; it simply hurts french users' eyes :wink:

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homaquebec
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Post by homaquebec » Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:13 pm

antoine wrote:Hi quosego. You have exactly pointed out what the *real* problem was. I confirm that Bruno Giroux and I are providing then french localization for PopTray, respectively for french (Canada) and french (France). As for french (France), you are right "0 messages" is mostly incorrect ; the correct form is "0 message". I let Bruno (homaquebec) answer for french (Canada).
Of course this bug is not leading to a misfunctioning of poptray ; it simply hurts french users' eyes :wink:
Antoine is right. I saw this problem with the release of the Beta 14 version. I bypasted the difficulty by tranlating message and messages by "courriel(s)". So, there could be 0 courriel(s), 1 courriel(s), 2 courriel(s).

The same situation happened with "igrored" that could have six different tranlations according to the gender and to the number. In the case that interests us, there could be two translations according to the number of messages. So, I translate "ignored" by "ignoré(s)".

Naturally, I would like the "machine" being more intelligent and more flexible but I understand the constraint. I also checked with some MS applications and this is the way they do. So, in the French version of those applications, we can see 0 ligne(s), 1 ligne(s), 2 ligne(s).

What would be interesting would be to have a bit more space so the first number and the last letters would not sometimes be hidden like in _ courriels. 2 courriel(s) ignor__ . (_=invisible) Using abreviations would make the things more difficult to understand and would greatly hurt French users' eyes all around the world in the 47 countries where French is used.
Last edited by homaquebec on Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ilNebbioso
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Post by ilNebbioso » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:32 pm

Sorry if my post will seem polemic (I'm having a full period).

I do not understand WHY french have to be SO different with their language (see email, homepage, zeros, ....) :(

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homaquebec
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Post by homaquebec » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:53 pm

ilNebbioso wrote:Sorry if my post will seem polemic (I'm having a full period).

I do not understand WHY french have to be SO different with their language (see email, homepage, zeros, ....) :(
Because French is a language where subtile technicalities can be expressed. It is the main reason why this language, during centuries, has been the language of diplomacy.

In addition, in French Canada, we are surrounded by an English ocean. We do have to be very careful it we do not want to be drowned in the English America. :o

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ilNebbioso
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Post by ilNebbioso » Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:10 pm

homaquebec wrote:Because French is a language where subtile technicalities can be expressed. It is the main reason why this language, during centuries, has been the language of diplomacy.
I can say the same for my language and culture, the italian one, used in the past in the arts and music. But, now is NOT the past, so I continue to do not understand why it is so difficult to use new terms simply as they are, in english. We say homepage and not "pagina iniziale" (inital page) or "pagina casa" (litterally), we say email and not "messaggio elettronico" (litterally)... and so on! :D We both love our language and we'll never loose it if will use (few) stranger terms!!!

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homaquebec
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Post by homaquebec » Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:38 pm

ilNebbioso wrote:
homaquebec wrote:Because French is a language where subtile technicalities can be expressed. It is the main reason why this language, during centuries, has been the language of diplomacy.
I can say the same for my language and culture, the italian one, used in the past in the arts and music. But, now is NOT the past, so I continue to do not understand why it is so difficult to use new terms simply as they are, in english. We say homepage and not "pagina iniziale" (inital page) or "pagina casa" (litterally), we say email and not "messaggio elettronico" (litterally)... and so on! :D We both love our language and we'll never loose it if will use (few) stranger terms!!!
ilNebbioso,

I prefer not to comment your affirmation but I have an idea. Either people are too lasy - or dont have, for different reasons, the necessary ressources - to find new words in their language, or they are colonized by English. Even in some very renamed French newspapers, we find, here and there, english words or expressions when there are equivalents in French. The same at the television. When I hear or read that, I just think that they do so because it is chic! I am not impressed at all!

To be honest, I must add that, in California for example, it is chic to use some French expressions when you talk or when you write. But we are in the field of fashion. The way a language is built and used is in the fields of science and art.
Last edited by homaquebec on Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:13 pm, edited 6 times in total.

antoine
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Post by antoine » Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:51 pm

ilNebbioso wrote:Sorry if my post will seem polemic (I'm having a full period). I do not understand WHY french have to be SO different with their language (see email, homepage, zeros, ....) :(
Hi ilNebbioso,

each language has its own rules and its own exceptions. Here is what was linked by quosego in a previous post of this thread.
Image

You'll see that the Polish language has even more specific gender and number forms.
Even English which looks quite universal has some specific rules : the police is plural, the plural of leaf is leaves, ... which look odd to non native english-speakers.

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ilNebbioso
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Post by ilNebbioso » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:47 pm

antoine wrote:each language has its own rules and its own exceptions. (...snip...)
You'll see that the Polish language has even more specific gender and number forms.
Even English which looks quite universal has some specific rules : the police is plural, the plural of leaf is leaves, ... which look odd to non native english-speakers.
As I told, I'm italian. My language has got numerous exceptions too! But, when translating (PT and others) is quite normal to arrange translation in order to be comprensible in my language. It is IMPOSSIBLE to litteraly translate everything, that's for sure.

...so, my (polemic, I'm sorry again) question was regarding the needs of the discussion... but, the answer is in the title: An irrelevant plural form :D

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SHADOW-XIII
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Post by SHADOW-XIII » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:19 pm

antoine wrote: Image
ermm, with Polish ... should be:
0 plików
1 plik
2 pliki
....
5 plików
....
10 plików
11 plików
12 plików
...
'end so on' plików
"Tell me how he die ... I will tell you how he live" - Last Samurai

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homaquebec
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Post by homaquebec » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:27 pm

SHADOW-XIII wrote:ermm, with Polish ... should be:
0 plików
1 plik
2 pliki
....
5 plików
....
10 plików
11 plików
12 plików
...
'end so on' plików
So, you could use the abeviation plik with or without a dot according to the Polish grammar.
:roll:

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SHADOW-XIII
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Post by SHADOW-XIII » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:38 pm

'plik' is only for 1
'pliki' is for 2,3,4
'plików' is for 0, 5 and every number higher than 5
So, you could use the abeviation plik with or without a dot according to the Polish grammar
... erm .. .maybe in other more simple words ? :oops:
"Tell me how he die ... I will tell you how he live" - Last Samurai

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